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Kloogee's Crash video and analysis

loyukfai

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Looks like not enough light for the OA to operate well.
 

skydioconvert

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To put it simply Kloogee is a likable guy but he expects "far too much" from this drone. Taking chances like he did in only barely visible light in an area filled with crisscrossing and overlapping wiring and cabling is exactly what the FAA is so concerned about. The pilot always has the ultimate responsibility for flying and he showed very poor judgement. He'll be lucky the local law enforcement doesn't try to make an example of him and slap a huge fine on him.
 
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Ridefreak

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Looks like not enough light for the OA to operate well.
Sorry that happened KlooGee. Low(er) light + blue cables + blue bridge structure = perfect storm. It's really easy to get a false sense of security with the SD2 but at the end of the day it's like anything, subject to the limitations of it's technology.
 

stefanonwheels

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I disagree with everybody who states that that crash is Klogee's fault. The Skydio 2 is marketed as a drone that will not crash. Of course, it has its limits like any technology, and that's totally fine. What I would expect from such a beautiful piece of AI-powered technology like that, though, is that it knows its limits and acts and warns me accordingly.
I see 3 ways the drone could "think":
  1. By default, fly. If an obstacle is detected, either avoid obstacle or stop.
  2. By default, fly. If OA doesn't work reliably (e.g. based on lighting conditions or if the OA cameras are dirty/obstructed), stop, show a warning and allow the user to override (which voids warranty in case of a crash). If OA works reliably and if an obstacle is detected, either avoid obstacle or stop.
  3. By default, don't fly. If and only if OA is working reliably and if no obstacle is detected, fly. If OA is not working reliably, show a warning and allow user to override (which voids warranty in case of a crash).
I get the impression that Skydio 2 implements something most similar to #1. That means that the drone itself relies on its own OA to work reliably by default and therefore expects too much from its own OA.

This is a consumer drone and as a pilot, I don't receive any specific training around the abilities of the drone's OA. "Avoid low light and thin branches" is not a clear instruction as I don't know what is too low light or which branches are too thin.
I as a consumer drone pilot am by no means qualified to reliably determine whether the drone's OA is working at any given time based on all the parameters the drone assesses (and that are not even known to me) or not.

Is there a way to make sure that every consumer drone pilot is aware of their drone's OA's limits, based on countless factors that are not even known to them? Probably not.
Is there a way to make the drone's AI aware of its own limits and to warn its pilots when limits are reached/exceeded? Yeah. My Mavic Pro that came out years ago has been doing it ever since. If it's too dark for OA, it shows a warning and I as the pilot know that I cannot rely on the drone's OA anymore.
Skydio 2 also shows you a warning when it's too dark, so as pilot, I assume that it is not too dark and that obstacle avoidance is fully functional if I don't get that warning.
If I get the warning, I will not rely on the drone's OA. If I don't get a warning, I will rely on the drone's OA. If I cannot rely on the drone's OA when I don't get a warning, I don't need a drone with AI-powered OA for $1k and I'll fly a $50 drone that I know will crash into everything and anything I make it crash into and I'll gladly assume full responsibility.
 
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loyukfai

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BTW, is it just me watching it on a small screen.... the footage looks quite OK for a small sensor in such lighting condition?
 
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skydioconvert

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I disagree with everybody who states that that crash is Klogee's fault. The Skydio 2 is marketed as a drone that will not crash. Of course, it has its limits like any technology, and that's totally fine. What I would expect from such a beautiful piece of AI-powered technology like that, though, is that it knows its limits and acts and warns me accordingly.
I see 3 ways the drone could "think":
  1. By default, fly. If an obstacle is detected, either avoid obstacle or stop.
  2. By default, fly. If OA doesn't work reliably (e.g. based on lighting conditions or if the OA cameras are dirty/obstructed), stop, show a warning and allow the user to override (which voids warranty in case of a crash). If OA works reliably and if an obstacle is detected, either avoid obstacle or stop.
  3. By default, don't fly. If and only if OA is working reliably and if no obstacle is detected, fly. If OA is not working reliably, show a warning and allow user to override (which voids warranty in case of a crash).
I get the impression that Skydio 2 implements something most similar to #1. That means that the drone itself relies on its own OA to work reliably by default and therefore expects too much from its own OA.

This is a consumer drone and as a pilot, I don't receive any specific training around the abilities of the drone's OA. "Avoid low light and thin branches" is not a clear instruction as I don't know what is too low light or which branches are too thin.
I as a consumer drone pilot am by no means qualified to reliably determine whether the drone's OA is working at any given time based on all the parameters the drone assesses (and that are not even known to me) or not.

Is there a way to make sure that every consumer drone pilot is aware of their drone's OA's limits, based on countless factors that are not even known to them? Probably not.
Is there a way to make the drone's AI aware of its own limits and to warn its pilots when limits are reached/exceeded? Yeah. My Mavic Pro that came out years ago has been doing it ever since. If it's too dark for OA, it shows a warning and I as the pilot know that I cannot rely on the drone's OA anymore.
Skydio 2 also shows you a warning when it's too dark, so as pilot, I assume that it is not too dark and that obstacle avoidance is fully functional if I don't get that warning.
If I get the warning, I will not rely on the drone's OA. If I don't get a warning, I will rely on the drone's OA. If I cannot rely on the drone's OA when I don't get a warning, I don't need a drone with AI-powered OA for $1k and I'll fly a $50 drone that I know will crash into everything and anything I make it crash into and I'll gladly assume full responsibility.
You seem more impassioned about holding Skydio's feet to the fire than you about a tenet that's been at the core of flying since day one ... i.e. The "pilot" has ultimate responsibility for the craft he is piloting. No slick advertising, no ground breaking advances in technology, no unbelievable low price should ever sway someone for thinking otherwise. To do so just gives our wonderful legislators that much more chance to make things even better ...insert a sarcastic emoticon.

All that aside, whats more important is that you and your family have a chance to enjoy a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
 
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Lon Denard

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This is an interesting subject and one I've already debated quite a bit. The subject of "fault" is going to come up frequently in the next few months.

I don't like this guy and seldom watch his videos but it's hardly fair to place all the blame on him when,

1. The Skydio 2 supposedly warns you when it can't see clearly and he received no such warning.
2. The size of the obstacle was over the diameter prescribed by Skydio.
3. He was engaged in activities encouraged by Skydio, it's marketing and demonstrated by it's own employees/reviewers on YouTube.

However, I don't agree with Skydio or other reviewers that anyone should "push the sticks forward and trust the drone will avoid obstacles". That's ridiculous and just plain stupid in my opinion. Yet we've seen several reviewers say exactly that and Skydio has commented that pilots need to "learn the art of letting go of control to get epic shots" on their videos.

I purchased the Skydio for basically this exact kinda shot. I've tried to shoot bridges with my Mavic 2 Pro several times without much success. I'm looking forward to better results from the Skydio 2 but I won't be completely trusting the drone, ever. I have almost 500 flights with my M2P and I don't "trust" it. Again that's just ridiculous.
 
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DoomMeister

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I disagree with everybody who states that that crash is Klogee's fault. The Skydio 2 is marketed as a drone that will not crash. Of course, it has its limits like any technology, and that's totally fine. What I would expect from such a beautiful piece of AI-powered technology like that, though, is that it knows its limits and acts and warns me accordingly.
I see 3 ways the drone could "think":
  1. By default, fly. If an obstacle is detected, either avoid obstacle or stop.
  2. By default, fly. If OA doesn't work reliably (e.g. based on lighting conditions or if the OA cameras are dirty/obstructed), stop, show a warning and allow the user to override (which voids warranty in case of a crash). If OA works reliably and if an obstacle is detected, either avoid obstacle or stop.
  3. By default, don't fly. If and only if OA is working reliably and if no obstacle is detected, fly. If OA is not working reliably, show a warning and allow user to override (which voids warranty in case of a crash).
I get the impression that Skydio 2 implements something most similar to #1. That means that the drone itself relies on its own OA to work reliably by default and therefore expects too much from its own OA.

This is a consumer drone and as a pilot, I don't receive any specific training around the abilities of the drone's OA. "Avoid low light and thin branches" is not a clear instruction as I don't know what is too low light or which branches are too thin.
I as a consumer drone pilot am by no means qualified to reliably determine whether the drone's OA is working at any given time based on all the parameters the drone assesses (and that are not even known to me) or not.

Is there a way to make sure that every consumer drone pilot is aware of their drone's OA's limits, based on countless factors that are not even known to them? Probably not.
Is there a way to make the drone's AI aware of its own limits and to warn its pilots when limits are reached/exceeded? Yeah. My Mavic Pro that came out years ago has been doing it ever since. If it's too dark for OA, it shows a warning and I as the pilot know that I cannot rely on the drone's OA anymore.
Skydio 2 also shows you a warning when it's too dark, so as pilot, I assume that it is not too dark and that obstacle avoidance is fully functional if I don't get that warning.
If I get the warning, I will not rely on the drone's OA. If I don't get a warning, I will rely on the drone's OA. If I cannot rely on the drone's OA when I don't get a warning, I don't need a drone with AI-powered OA for $1k and I'll fly a $50 drone that I know will crash into everything and anything I make it crash into and I'll gladly assume full responsibility.
Well said! The limits need to be clear in documentation. Their own videos hype its capabilities.
 

Lon Denard

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Well said! The limits need to be clear in documentation. Their own videos hype its capabilities.
Right? People have accused me of being a DJI fanboy or whatever but these Skydio guys are raising the fanboy bar! The company's entire marketing scheme revolves around a guy launching the drone, putting his phone in his pocket and doing something "cool" for 20+ minutes with the drone dutifully following him around avoiding obstacles on it's own. They've released videos of the drone flying all through the woods (awesome videos btw), through warehouses, etc without issue like it's no big deal for the Skydio2.

Now there's a problem and *BOOM* it's the pilot's fault! Yeesh. I'm a field engineer and I work around cranes, bridges, tall buildings and other large equipment every day. I'm looking forward to being able to get shots by these masses of metal without fear of a compass reaction but I'm not stupid enough to believe this drone will see everything. I pity the suckers that are going to crash this drone over the coming weeks... I'm also curious as to how Skydio will respond? Anyone that owned a 3DR Solo or GoPro Karma (I own both) knows that a company can only support broad based warranties for so long. Especially if there's a bunch of problems.
 

VEGASROBBI

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Skydio has pushed the bar up with this technology. Given the high volume of footage gathered where SD did not fail, as seen on YouTube and elsewhere, where SD is pushed through forests and bridges (high risk) I'd say the failure ratio is low.

The Pilot is always IN COMMAND. Don't fool yourself that any technology is perfect. Commercial airliners have autopilots that can land in a storm but when was the last time you saw one without a pilot?

Skydio is not perfect and never will be, there will always be that perfect storm. This guy was pushing into a complex environment with changing light conditions, even a seasoned fpv Pilot would have had a hard time in that scenario.

Marketing aside SD allows us to get better perspectives, more usable footage when flown properly and with COMMON SENSE. Don't believe the hype, marketing is marketing all the manufacturers push the envelope.

Here's my M2 attacking my vehicle in daylight with obstacle avoidence on, and there are plenty more examples of DJI drones attacking subjects with OA active. Does DJI tell you to wear a helmet when using AT? This is not a scenario of the drone avoiding or stopping at an object; rather it actively attacking the object.

No technology is perfect and maybe we expect too much sometimes. I always fly responsibly and never give up LOS or pilot control. I see autonomous flight as an aid to my piloting.

GO4 constantly warns of wind, nfz, interference, updates, imu, battery warning, temperature - it's rather annoying and akin to a lawyer covering his *** so when something happens they can say we warned you. My DJI drones have crashed as much as any drone without the warnings.

Skydio will get better with time but it will never be what some expect, especially at this price point.

I can see the hail Mary push of the stick in search and rescue, invariably there will be debris to navigate where the drone is at high risk but the data is more valuable at point; a $50 disposal drone won't hack it in that situation.

BTW in this video I could not override Active Attack with the sticks.

 
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Lon Denard

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Skydio has pushed the bar up with this technology. Given the high volume of footage gathered where SD did not fail, as seen on YouTube and elsewhere, where SD is pushed through forests and bridges (high risk) I'd say the failure ratio is low.

The Pilot is always IN COMMAND. Don't fool yourself that any technology is perfect. Commercial airliners have autopilots that can land in a storm but when was the last time you saw one without a pilot?

Skydio is not perfect and never will be, there will always be that perfect storm. This guy was pushing into a complex environment with changing light conditions, even a seasoned fpv Pilot would have had a hard time in that scenario.

Marketing aside SD allows us to get better perspectives, more usable footage when flown properly and with COMMON SENSE. Don't believe the hype, marketing is marketing all the manufacturers push the envelope.

Here's my M2 attacking my vehicle in daylight with obstacle avoidence on, and there are plenty more examples of DJI drones attacking subjects with OA active. Does DJI tell you to wear a helmet when using AT? This is not a scenario of the drone avoiding or stopping at an object; rather it actively attacking the object.

No technology is perfect and maybe we expect too much sometimes. I always fly responsibly and never give up LOS or pilot control. I see autonomous flight as an aid to my piloting.

GO4 constantly warns of wind, nfz, interference, updates, imu, battery warning, temperature - it's rather annoying and akin to a lawyer covering his *** so when something happens they can say we warned you. My DJI drones have crashed as much as any drone without the warnings.

Skydio will get better with time but it will never be what some expect, especially at this price point.

BTW in this video I could not override Active Attack with the sticks.

Dude...why does DJI have to come up all the time with you? DJI has never claimed the Obstacle Avoidance was perfect. In fact, to my knowledge DJI has never released videos of their employees or proxies demonstrating Active Track in any way even coming close to Skydio. Why not mention Yuneec who DID demonstrate and market their Intel Realsense Obstacle Avoidance as being capable of navigating "complex environments"? Besides, you know for a fact that there have been several updates to DJI's Active Track since this incident... Maybe "changing light conditions" or "complex environments" were at play for the M2P as well? Geez... I mean, you take a drone that's sold millions of units and point out the hundreds of failures but the Skydio 2 has already had several documented crashes with very few sales... With a drone that was marketed as "uncrashable"...

I don't know what happened with your drone but have you ever posted the flight logs? Did DJI take care of you? You've brought this up several times but I'm not sure what the resolution was? Since it's ALWAYS the pilot's responsibility, I guess this incident was your fault, right?
 

Ridefreak

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Dude...why does DJI have to come up all the time with you? DJI has never claimed the Obstacle Avoidance was perfect. In fact, to my knowledge DJI has never released videos of their employees or proxies demonstrating Active Track in any way even coming close to Skydio. Why not mention Yuneec who DID demonstrate and market their Intel Realsense Obstacle Avoidance as being capable of navigating "complex environments"? Besides, you know for a fact that there have been several updates to DJI's Active Track since this incident... Maybe "changing light conditions" or "complex environments" were at play for the M2P as well? Geez... I mean, you take a drone that's sold millions of units and point out the hundreds of failures but the Skydio 2 has already had several documented crashes with very few sales... With a drone that was marketed as "uncrashable"...

I don't know what happened with your drone but have you ever posted the flight logs? Did DJI take care of you? You've brought this up several times but I'm not sure what the resolution was? Since it's ALWAYS the pilot's responsibility, I guess this incident was your fault, right?
When I saw you joined this forum I thought here it goes. Every place I see you on the web with regards to a drone you're arguing for a DJI product or trying to convince someone that they're in the wrong according to you. If there was an ignore option here I'd have you on it.

Ha, I found it. Ignored!
 

VEGASROBBI

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Look back DJI and thier reps DID promote Active Track as having equal capabilities to a Anafi or Typhoon. They not only represented Active Track as having GPS to GPS but using a device barometer for dynamic altitude, a video was produced to prove such. Talk about misleading marketing. Showing an Inspire flying sideways at 45 mph following a vehicle when they didn't even have profile mode.

This is not what uspets me the most....logs lol. DJI knows active track misidentifies the subject and goes into attack mode. The reps know it and are ordered to keep it on the hush. Profit is more important than safety and that is not okay with me. Profit to pay lawyers for "acceptable" losses.

I haven't got my Skydio so I reserve judgment but the jury is in on DJI Active Track.

Competition is good maybe the Mavic 3 Active Track will work as intended. Personally I don't trust any put optical tracking. In the meantime DJI products are excellent, is that what you want to hear? Just use it for what it is good at, aerial photography and don't believe the marketing.
 

Lon Denard

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When I saw you joined this forum I thought here it goes. Every place I see you on the web with regards to a drone you're arguing for a DJI product or trying to convince someone that they're in the wrong according to you. If there was an ignore option here I'd have you on it.

Ha, I found it. Ignored!
Well, you won't see this but I wasn't "arguing for a DJI product", at best I was defending it. Not even really that... My point is simple, everyone needs to look at this drone on it's own. Saying that this crash was justified or okay because "I have proof that DJI drones crash too" is a very base defense for a device marketed as "UNCRASHABLE". They even started their marketing campaign flying a Phantom 4 Pro into a sign and saying DJI drones are "DUMB" but the Skydio 2 is "SMART". Well apparently, it's not that smart, is it? There has been several crashes with this drone, including a guy riding a mountain bike out in the middle of no where. I guess that crash was his fault too? Are any of these crashes EVER going to be Skydio's fault or is it going to come down to "pilot error" every single time? Hmmm... that sounds familiar... Like something DJI gets accused of all the time.

Go ahead and enjoy your echo chamber of Skydio praise. I personally want to know exactly what the drone will do or won't do. I'm not some ego maniac that films himself riding a dirt bike out in the middle of no where 24/7. I need a drone to do a bit more than that. We'll see when I get mine. I plan to run it through it's paces and see what it'll do. If it works, great, I'll join you in the circle and we can pat each other on the back until the cows come home. If not, you're gonna want to keep that "ignore" in place for the duration. Trust me.
 

Lon Denard

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Look back DJI and thier reps DID promote Active Track as having equal capabilities to a Anafi or Typhoon. They not only represented Active Track as having GPS to GPS but using a device barometer for dynamic altitude, a video was produced to prove such. Talk about misleading marketing. Showing an Inspire flying sideways at 45 mph following a vehicle when they didn't even have profile mode.

This is not what uspets me the most....logs lol. DJI knows active track misidentifies the subject and goes into attack mode. The reps know it and are ordered to keep it on the hush. Profit is more important than safety and that is not okay with me. Profit to pay lawyers for "acceptable" losses.

I haven't got my Skydio so I reserve judgment but the jury is in on DJI Active Track.

Competition is good maybe the Mavic 3 Active Track will work as intended. Personally I don't trust any put optical tracking. In the meantime DJI products are excellent, is that what you want to hear? Just use it for what it is good at, aerial photography and don't believe the marketing.
Bro, I have a couple dozen Active Track tests without any incidents. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to say you didn't have a problem, I'm saying that I haven't. Should I trust my 500 flights with the M2P or your incident? BTW the M2P has profile tracking... The Inspire has a 360 degree rotating camera, it doesn't need profile tracking... I might be missing something. I was watching the M2P launch live and I don't remember the Anafi or the Typhoon H being mentioned at all. I've also never seen any DJI representative claim GPS to GPS tracking... Again, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Quite frankly, I'm pretty confident that I've never seen DJI do the type of trash talking Skydio has done in their ads and marketing materials. I may be wrong though. DJI has a YouTube channel, I've watched pretty much every video and haven't seen any mention of other companies.

For the record, the Parrot does an excellent job of GPS tracking to the controller/phone. I don't know how well it does over varying elevations but I seem to remember that it had problems. I've taken the M2P over varying elevations and it did "okay" but it's not perfect by any means. As you may know, I had the THP and had "issues" with it so I returned it.

I agree that GPS tracking combined with optical is vastly superior to either type alone. That's why I've dropped about $2000 on the Skydio 2...so far. You (and dirt bike boy) have very specific use cases that the Skydio 2 was seemly designed for. Unfortunately, my use case and possibly 90% of drone pilot's use case were an afterthought. We'll see what the future will bring but I doubt DJI is going to give up on the compass anytime soon so the Skydio 2 will continue to be my construction site, bridge, crane, etc filming drone for the foreseeable future.Even after I buy the Mavic 3 Pro, Mavic 2 Pro+, Mavic 2 Pro Platinum or whatever they decide to call it.
 

VEGASROBBI

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Now that I think about it you confronted me years ago, said I was doing something wrong with Active Track ,my fault. You challenged how many hours I had in follow.

Like Ed and Ken I challenged you to produce a video to defend your claims. Follow uphill at 30 mph from the front, not hard for Solo, Anafi(28), Typhoon and Halo. You said I trapped you because DJI tracking wouldn't go 30 mph, then you read the manual and changed your position. Ed, Ian, Ken...all BS'd us on the matter and in 3 years not one single video to support your claim. I have over 1,000 real follow hours you are welcome to come and review them rather than attack me.


So Skydio is actually doing what DJI failed to do so why are you here banging on it? Give it some space it may not be ideal but don't bury it in DJI BS like you would like.

There is a fine line between you and a troll. If you can't substantiate your claims and have nothing to contribute here go away.
 

VEGASROBBI

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Bro, I have a couple dozen Active Track tests without any incidents. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to say you didn't have a problem, I'm saying that I haven't. Should I trust my 500 flights with the M2P or your incident? BTW the M2P has profile tracking... The Inspire has a 360 degree rotating camera, it doesn't need profile tracking... I might be missing something. I was watching the M2P launch live and I don't remember the Anafi or the Typhoon H being mentioned at all. I've also never seen any DJI representative claim GPS to GPS tracking... Again, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Quite frankly, I'm pretty confident that I've never seen DJI do the type of trash talking Skydio has done in their ads and marketing materials. I may be wrong though. DJI has a YouTube channel, I've watched pretty much every video and haven't seen any mention of other companies.

For the record, the Parrot does an excellent job of GPS tracking to the controller/phone. I don't know how well it does over varying elevations but I seem to remember that it had problems. I've taken the M2P over varying elevations and it did "okay" but it's not perfect by any means. As you may know, I had the THP and had "issues" with it so I returned it.

I agree that GPS tracking combined with optical is vastly superior to either type alone. That's why I've dropped about $2000 on the Skydio 2...so far. You (and dirt bike boy) have very specific use cases that the Skydio 2 was seemly designed for. Unfortunately, my use case and possibly 90% of drone pilot's use case were an afterthought. We'll see what the future will bring but I doubt DJI is going to give up on the compass anytime soon so the Skydio 2 will continue to be my construction site, bridge, crane, etc filming drone for the foreseeable future.Even after I buy the Mavic 3 Pro, Mavic 2 Pro+, Mavic 2 Pro Platinum or whatever they decide to call it.
Where's the video? 30 mph uphill(winding) from the front or we don't care. You've had plenty of time.
 

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